Prime Minister Edi Rama is attending a key summit of the NATO heads of state and government in Vilnius, Lithuania.

The Albanian government head had a conversation with Rachel Rizzo, a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council’s Europe Center, as part of the Public Forum on the sidelines of the Vilnius NATO Summit this afternoon.

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Rachel Rizzo: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the NATO public forum here on the sidelines of the Vilnius Summit.

I am Rachel Rizzo, a non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic council’s Europe Center and I am thrilled to have with me today, the Prime Minister of Albania, Edi Rama. We’re going to talk about NATO, the Balkans and some specific security issues facing Albania today.  But we don’t have that much time, so I’d like to get right into it.

Sir, you’ve been an outspoken champion of the Transatlantic Alliance and NATO in particular. You’ve also talked about tasking your Ministry of Defense to reach 2% of GDP in defense spending by next year. You also tweeted a couple days ago basically saying that only together can we prevail in this very defining moment. So we saw a moment of unity yesterday with Turkiye finally dropping its opposition to Sweden’s membership in the Alliance. Are we going to see unity on display in terms of the language that comes out of this Summit for Ukraine? What are your thoughts on that?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: First of all, let me say that being a champion when you don’t have to take the big decisions is easy?  Albania is a proud, small member of NATO and it’s a place where we feel very good for many reasons, but I also feel good for one reason that it’s not up to me to make the terrible big decisions.

So, on the other hand, yes I think there is a full intention to continue the unwavering support for Ukraine and everyone seems to be committed to invest more on defense, which is a direct effect also of what’s happening in Ukraine and for us is it comes very natural, because we learned in the hardest way the value of freedom and democracy in the life of a country. We were deprived of them for so many years and in the most brutal methods ever seen within the communist empire and Albania is a country where Vladimir Putin’s popularity ranges from 0.7 percent to 1.2 percent. So we don’t have anything else, but full understanding and full support by the whole public opinion in Albania and the big question is always how democracies can stand a dictator or a dictatorial regime in a conflict, because democracies have to fight at the same time have to listen to the people, while Vladimir Putin has no one to listen to.

Rachel Rizzo: On Ukraine though, we don’t have the communiqué out. Ah, it is already out?

PM Edi Rama: I didn’t read it, but I agreed already it.

Rachel Rizzo: It seems that the language says about Ukraine’s membership when allies agree, when conditions allow it.

PM Edi Rama: Look, Romanians didn’t read the communiqué, yet they agreed on it.

Rachel Rizzo: Does this sound like a repeat of Bucharest?

PM Edi Rama: No, I didn’t mention Romania for that. I just don’t need to say that. There are many countries in this Alliance that are happy to be here and are very keen to approve everything they are told to approve.

Rachel Rizzo: Let’s ship to the Western Balkans a little bit. You’ve said that Albania is ready to commit additional troops to strengthen NATO’s Forward Presence. You’ve also emphasized the importance of NATO’s commitment to promoting stability and cooperation across the Western Balkans. We’ve obviously been watching what’s going on between Serbia and Kosovo, lately also in Bosnia and Herzegovina. What concrete steps do you think NATO has to take uh to strengthen the security situation in the Western Balkans and do you see a risk of contagion given the fact that North Macedonia, Montenegro and Albania are all members of the NATO alliance?

PM Edi Rama: I feel quite comfortable by the fact that President Biden in his address to the to the Council touched upon this point, because the Western Balkan security problem nowadays, probably not of the same magnitude of Ukraine’s huge problem, but is not as small as to be treated like it’s irrelevant and what is happening is really disturbing, especially lately with the northern Kosovo becoming really a hot spot and with the threat of conflict becoming more and more obvious. While the EU-facilitated dialogue is dealing with two sides, Belgrade and Pristina, there is a third side that is in making, namely the extremist groups in northern Kosovo, where a safe haven has been created  for years for criminal activities, drug and weapon trafficking, illegal crypto-currency production and where this mix of local politicians with criminals and the mix of Mafia interests with the national and human right concerns can be really very explosive. That’s why I think it’s time to combine this EU facilitated dialogue and the path of diplomacy with much firmer stance of NATO through KFOR.

Rachel Rizzo: Yes, thank you. Looking at Albania specifically, has recently been the victim of widespread cyber attacks on your National infrastructure attributed to Iran. So looking at that for a second, what do you think what more could or what should NATO allies do to both protect critical infrastructure and enhance their cyber defenses?

PM Edi Rama: This is a big challenge and it will become increasingly bigger with the broader introduction in our lives of the artificial intelligence in full force and this for Albania and Albania’s example, I must say that as I said, we are a small country and we are not in a position to change the the destiny of any war or a conflict or a battle, but when we are asked to help we are more than happy to do so, because it’s not every day that you can be useful though being so small and it’s not every day that be your allies ask you to help. So practically we were asked to help with this Iranian opposition group, MEK, that are some really “tough cookies”, I must say, and they were being massacred in Iran, in Iraq by the Iranian secret services and we’re asked to get them in and to save their lives. And saving lives is in the very ADN of Albanians and I must say that Albania was the only country in Europe with more Jews after the Second World War than before, because all Jews felt safe in Albania. And instead of leaving the country, they were coming in the country and not a single Jew on record was handed over to the Nazis. We were very keen to welcome 500 000 refugees escaping Slobodan Milosevic’s ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. We opened immediately the doors to the Afghans after the mess in Kabul and thousands of them came and were saved in Albania. So we did the same with these Iranian opposition group members and, of course, it’s not the same in the sense of the risk, because they are opposition people, although the agreement was very clear that they had to be in Albania to be safe and not to turn Albania in a political platform against the regime. Unfortunately, some things happened and we were under a big cyber attack. Being very advanced in digital services, as we practically rank among top countries in Europe for offering online services to citizens, we were vulnerable and, yes, in order to strengthen our cyber defense we need more money from the Congress and the Senate, but when it’s not anymore in the news, it’s not anymore a problem sometimes. So the problem remained with us, and we are trying to do everything to strengthen our cyber defense, but it’s not very easy.

Rachel Rizzo: Do you see meaningful steps being made in that direction?

PM Edi Rama: Do you mean from the U.S. side?

Rachel Rizzo: Yes, since you said you needed money from the Congress. Is that happening?

PM Edi Rama: It depends what you call meaningful, but I would say…We are on record, right? We are being watched, right? No, they are not being fully supportive in that as much as we would wish for. Let’s say it and then they can do whatever they want.

Rachel Rizzo: That’s a good answer for on the record.

PM Edi Rama: I mean they can do whatever they want to me.

Rachel Rizzo: We have an audience in Washington, actually that’s tuning into this and we’re going to beam over to them in a couple of minutes at a little razzle-dazzle to the question session. Before we do that, we have a couple of minutes and I want to talk about something that is also on the docket here at the NATO Summit, but that has been a little bit overshadowed by the discussion on Ukraine, Turkiye and Sweden, but there’s also been a lot of discussion about the relationship with NATO and the Indo-Pacific and NATO’s partners in the Indo-Pacific region. Japan’s Premier Kshida and other leaders from the Indo-Pacific region are here. At the same time, you have China that is spending about 7.2 percent of its GDP on defense as the world’s largest standing army, the world’s largest navy. Do you see NATO’s relationship with the Indo-Pacific deepening? Do you see that as a distraction or how do you think that those relationships should develop going forward?

PM Edi Rama: First and foremost, I think we should be very careful in how we define others. Unclear approaches can trigger problems. So not having clearly defined Russia for a long time, what Russia was about, was an enemy, was an adversary, was a competitor or was a friend, has created a lot of room for confusion and frustration and I think it’s time to be very clear on China, what China is for us. It’s not an enemy of course. It’s not an adversary, but it is definitely a competitor that based on what we do, can become more or less ruthless. In the meantime, we need to be well prepared and we need to do whatever we can to get much more understanding and much more forces that join us to confront the future.

Rachel Rizzo: I am trusting on technology right now and I see our friends from Washington on the screen …

PM  Edi Rama: It is a controlled debate, right?

Rachel Rizzo: Yeah, exactly. I’m going to turn it to you uh my friend. I don’t know your name, but please go ahead and ask your question we should be able to hear you.

– Thank you, Prime Minister Rama for being here today. My name is Anna Maria de Baseli and I’m a first year student at Georgetown, originally from Italy, and my question is actually on China and specifically on Chinese assertiveness in the Mediterranean. Albania has invested in its port infrastructure, but is also surrounded by many countries that have accepted Chinese investments in their port infrastructure. What do you think NATO should do to counter Chinese penetration and assertiveness in Southern Europe and Balkan infrastructure and in the Mediterranean too?

PM Edi Rama: I’m not in a good position to give advice or suggestion or let alone lecture others, because of history. We don’t have these problems, because we had China and Russia when everyone decided to give them up. If in this country, where we are now, or in other former Soviet countries, Stalin monuments were removed long ago, we had this Mr. Joseph Vissarionovich until in 1990 in our main Boulevard, because we had abandoned the whole communist bloc, we had walked out of the Warsaw Treaty in 1960 and the reason was that we wanted to remain loyal to Stalin and for us all the others were traitors.

Then we went to China and we got the worst China possible with the Cultural Revolution, which came to us in the form of first declaring God illegal in the country, like an illegal immigrant, and blowing up 2450 churches and temples with dynamite and burning 300 000 religious artworks in the streets and then, second, the complete ban on 20th century art and culture in early 70s. So both China and Russia are old marriages we don’t want to go back to.

For the others is different history, different attitude, and different thing, and it is not that we have really had relations with China and Russia. Just imagine that since 1990, when we got free, it never occurred a high-level official visit from Albania to Moscow or vice versa. It is different when it comes to China as we have a friendly relation, but our country is not among the ones to receive much of Chinese Investments and we don’t really look forward to have more Chinese investments. I think I already said it; it is about old marriages you don’t want to review.

Rachel Rizzo: Is there another question for from Washington or should I go to the audience, as I don’t see any hands up there. We have one minute and 45 seconds left.

PM Edi Rama: Because it’s an orchestrated debate, you had only one to ask a question and others were not supposed to act. How could we possibly have more time available and they are not ready to ask. This is a typical democratically controlled debate.

–I am Juxhina from the Atlantic Council of Albania. My question is regarding your Balkan tour you made in recent days  and it’s about whether or not you are confident on the the answer or the attitude of the European Union toward Western Balkan countries regarding their membership in the EU?

– It was a follow-up question. What we can expect from the Berlin initiative meeting that will take place in Tirana about the accession of the Western Balkans to the European Union?

PM Edi Rama: We suffered a lot and we had a nervous breakdown for some time, because of not having the accession talks opened and we were ready to open talks based on the European Commission reports, but we were not ready based on the European Council. And we were like being told all the time that they wanted to marry us, but they didn’t want to talk to us and I don’t know how this could happen. When the accession talks started, for us that was it! Why? This was because we desperately wanted the EU accession talks opened, as the most unique know-how state-building transfer you can ever find. If there is a difference between our country or the countries in Western Balkans that have a very poor tradition of institutions and that have been cursed by history in a very harsh way and have never had the possibility to build credible states, with countries let’s say like Iraq or any other country, the main difference is that we are blessed to be in the middle of Europe and to have the European Union, because European Union, as terrifying as it is in making you wanting to die of boredom, it helps you with a method of building institutions and, of course, this is not something that comes with excitement. You have to make homework constantly and this homework has to be definitely done. I always advocated that accession talks had to be open as soon as possible and then membership has to come, when it has to come; We are not in a rush. We need to learn to drive the car at all different speeds and not cry to have a driving license, before we know how to drive because then we crash and then frustration follows.

I think that the time we live in, needs a different approach from the European Union in terms of doing more to get the Balkans integrated, first of all doing more financially. What practically happened during these crises is that they have further widened the gap between us in the Western Balkans and with the European Union. And guess what. Based on a very simple calculation of the money that has been distributed among the EU member states, our neighboring that are already EU members, have got with all these packages and contributions to overcome the pandemic, the energy crisis, to overcome this and that, something like 4800 euros per capita. We have got 132 euros per capital. Some pre-accession funds should be structured some more political participation should be structured and then this has to be combined with the European Union reform, because the decision-making process in the EU is already a mess. They are already incapable of making all decisions with 27 members, right? So, adding six more members from the Western Balkans, who are bringing a lot of enthusiasm and joy, but not a lot of patience, won’t make the decision-making process easier, I assume. So it should be a combined a combined thing, but, to conclude, I we can say whatever we want about the European Union, but one thing is sure; without the European Union we would not be able to do 90% of the things we have done in the last 30 years, and without the United States that also have their own problems – and we can certainly say whatever we wish to say- but we, the Albanian national wouldn’t have been able to survive. So if we are today so well placed, that we have made so much tangible progress, not only we in Albania, but also independent and free Kosovo, full participation of Albanians in North Macedonia’s political and social life or Albanians in Montenegro being well-represented and, by the way, six Balkan countries, three Albanian prime ministers. Of course, something might go wrong, but anyway it is something I feel good about. I think that we should really never forget that we are blessed to be in the heart of Europe and to have these two big strategic allies, United States and European Union and, of course, after doing the homework during the day, we can certainly make fun of them in the evening, because without fun the Western Balkans would have been dead long ago.

Rachel Rizzo: Mr. Prime Minister Rama, thank you for being with us!